Talking with Ray Fowler about UFOs, NDEs,
OBEs, time warps and the “clock phenomena”

Rosemary Ellen Guiley, PhD

Raymond E. Fowler is one of the leading international authorities on ufology and abductions, including the celebrated Betty Andreasson Luca case. Fowler’s research of Betty’s involvement with aliens spanned more than 20 years. In the course of his work, Fowler discovered that he, too, is an abductee. It put a personal spin on already intensely involved work. Fowler’s unique perspective takes him to the cutting edge of research, where ufology merges into other phenomena of a paranormal or otherdimensional nature, such as near-death experiences, out-of-body experiences, extrasensory perception, and ghosts.

Ray Fowler has written 11 books on ufology and paranormal phenomena, among them The Andreasson Affair, The Andreasson Affair Phase II, The Andreasson Legacy, The Watchers, The Watchers II and The Allaghash Abductions. He has served as Director of Investigations for MUFON, consulted for the media, and contributed reports to Congressional hearings, military publications, and numerous newspapers, magazines and professional journals. Fowler lives in Kennebunkport, Maine, where he teaches adult education courses on ufology and the paranormal. He is an amateur astronomer. He can be reached at www.raymondfowler.org.

Rosemary: Are you still experiencing abductions? Please tell us about your most recent notable experience and how it compares to your own historical pattern.

Ray: When I saw your first question, I initially did not remember many unusual happenings since we moved from Massachusetts to Maine. However, in the past I recorded such strange happenings in my diary. The interesting thing is when I go back to read my diary it is like reading about someone else. In most cases I have forgotten the experiences. I find unless I write experiences down soon after they happen I forget them and they do not get recorded. The best answer I can give you is to quote what I found in my diaries from 2000 onwards.
This is about where I left off recording such experiences in my last books. I will leave it up to your readers to determine whether or not I still am experiencing abductions. Unlike my experiences in the past, I have no memory communicating with the gray entities. In one instance, I did record a realistic abduction dream (?) where entities were operating on a nude woman. However, I do consider the following diary inputs as possible benchmarks of the abduction experience.

Ap. 11, 2007: Yesterday I noticed a large bruise on my left thigh. Today, when taking a shower, I felt an area of my left leg stinging. I saw a small wound over the femur bone running up my leg. Under magnification, I saw 3 tiny punctures in the shape of an isosceles triangle. I would probably have not noticed these tiny marks if they had not stung when in contact with soapy water.

Nov. 1, 2006: I discovered two tiny scabbed puncture marks on both legs above the knees and just about in the same location like twin punctures.

Nov. 11, 2006: I was eating salted nuts today and noticed my right thumb stung with pain when I picked one up. I looked and was surprised to see a vertical cut about 3/8-inch long. I had not noticed it before nor felt any pain or seen any blood on my thumb.

Dec. 26, 2006: I woke up to the night hearing a loud tone. I did not want to get up to see what it was but finally did as I wanted to put a stop to it. I thought a certain light had been left on downstairs that sometimes gives out a tone sound. However, that light was not on. I then realized the tone was internal, coming from one of my ears. I went back to bed and I listened for a short while before it slowly dimmed to nothing and I fell asleep.

Dec. 27, 2006: I awoke with a start this morning when I heard a female voice calling my name. I think the voice said something just before my name but I cannot remember what.

Feb. 1, 2005: I awoke to find the pillow stained with a large and small patch of a dried up liquid.

Feb. 3, 2005: I awoke to find a number of dried up patches of a brown liquid on the back of my undershirt.

Mar. 4, 2004: Sometime during the night I experienced the weird tingling sensation which in the past was the preamble to abduction dreams and physical effects on my body. I recognized the sensation and decided not to resist it. My whole body began vibrating so much I felt I was dissolving into nothingness and I must have fallen asleep. I did dream of the object in my nose but upon waking the anomalous oval object was still intact and there was no blood on my pillow.

Aug. 26, 2004: Unusual happening. I felt an itch on my right testicle, scratched it and found it was bleeding profusely covering my right leg with blood. I washed it off and put antiseptic on the area, but can see no cut or sore.

Aug. 7/8, 2004: During the night I awoke with a start shuddering all over and feeling the familiar tingling throughout my body I have felt in the past prior to or after what I believe to have been an OBE abduction. I cannot remember much after this except saying to myself, “I wonder where they will be taking me!

Ap. 8, 2003: I awoke this morning with a bloody scab on the back of my neck just above the hairline where it used to appear periodically. According to my diaries, the last time this happened was Nov. 28, 1999.

Ap. 24, 2003: I was having a dream about being in bed asleep when all of a sudden a bright light shined in my face, I was wrapped in something dark, and lifted out of bed. When I awoke afterwards to use the bathroom, my body was vibrating with the tingling sensation. This happened last Mar. 16, 2002.

Mar. 8, 2002: I slept in the guestroom tonight as Margaret has a bad cold. Although tired, I found it hard to get to sleep and stay asleep. At one point while wide-awake I heard a loud beeping sound. I do not remember what happened after hearing this sound. I do not remember getting up to investigate but do have a memory or a dream of being out of bed and on the floor struggling with something I could not see. When I brought my pillows back to our bedroom the following morning, Margaret pointed out a spot of blood on the pillow. I checked my face and found a scab on my chin.

Mar. 16, 2002: Yesterday I had a flashback to an experience during the night with the tingling sensation. It started when I heard a clicking sound, just as in the past. However, in this new house we often get clicking sounds when the baseboard heaters heat up, so it is hard to say whether it was this or something else. It came on suddenly and extremely strong. I felt as if I were vibrating all over, then felt as if I melted into nothingness. In the morning I had a pain under my testicles I have experienced in the past. As before, there was a raised lump-like scab on the exterior segment of the spermatic cord called the external spermatic fascia. That same night I had a dream of being out of bed on the floor and struggling with something I could not see. Interestingly, I was out of my body looking at myself on the floor in the dream.

Ap. 12, 2002: During the night I felt that same uptight uneasiness prior to experiencing the familiar tingling. Then I heard a clicking sound and the vibrating feeling coursed through my body. I think I went to sleep but awoke again feeling the same sensation. During the night I dreamed I got out of bed, slipped into my shoes in my bare feet and went downstairs. I cannot remember any other details.

May 29, 2002: When I woke up this morning, my bed was in total disarray. The mattress covers were off even on the far end of the bed. More puzzling and a complete mystery is the telephone, on the side table when I went to bed, it was now sitting on the floor. Had it fallen off the table during the night it would have made a loud crash and a ring waking us both up, but we did not hear a thing. I don’t remember feeling the tingling sensation, but one wonders if we had visitors!

Sept. 2, 2002: This morning there was blood on my pillow where my nose had pressed against it. I do not remember anything out of the ordinary except wondering if I would have any more abduction experiences in the future. I could find no signs of bleeding in my nose or on my face.

Jan. 25, 2001: I awoke feeling extremely tired though I had gone to bed early. When I got up and put my pajamas under my pillow, there were three spots of blood on the pillow case, each the size of a nose nostril. Then, when we were making the bed there was also a spot a little larger on the upper end of the sheet on my side of the bed. Unlike other times in the past, other than the tiredness, I did not remember any abduction dreams although I woke with a start at 3:33, as I have in the past, with the same clock numbers lined up after or before an unusual experience.

May 16, 2001: Had a floating dream last night. Floating on my back in the water. Awoke with fresh scabs on the middle of my back. Margaret said it looks like something clawed me. I can barely reach the area with my hands and find it hard to believe I could have done it in the night.

Sept. 30, 2001: This evening, after retiring, I lay thinking about a possible relocation to Maine. Margy was asleep. Suddenly I heard three electronic evenly spaced beeps come from the direction of the bedroom door. I thought I must have imagined this but then the same sounds were repeated from the same area. I woke Margy up and asked her to listen to see if she could hear these sounds, but they did not repeat themselves. I stayed awake for awhile listening and sometime after felt the familiar tingling feeling envelop my body. I do not remember what happened after that.

Dec. 17, 2001: Awoke with a start with the familiar vibrating tingling feeling after hearing a male voice call my name. Remnants of the tingling feeling remained for a least a half-hour. No memory of anything else except normal dreams.

Feb. 1, 2000: I heard clicks from the window, which I believe were caused by the wind as when I closed the window, the noises stopped. However, I was experiencing a mild tingling feeling when I fell asleep. While asleep I had a flying dream.

I met with my former pastor for lunch. My daughter, Sharon, had gone to him and told him about my experiences recorded in The Andreasson Legacy. She was upset and wanted him to talk to me about it. I told him I was planning to leave the field of UFO research because of family pressures after I completed my last book on UFOs. He did not condemn me and felt the subject of UFOs should be explored. Last time I met with him, I tried to tell him about one of my experiences, but I became so overwhelmed with emotion I could hardly breathe or talk. I thought this time I would have no problem and began again to tell him about the experience, in which I had a realistic dream of waking on a table and having something thrust up my nose, etc. Two grays (one short, one tall) and a familiar human-looking entity were standing in front of the table looking at me, etc. I was amazed to find no sooner had I started to relate this when I almost went into convulsions. A tremendous well of emotions swept over me so rapidly I found it difficult to breathe. I tried to talk but couldn’t. I almost cried. It took a few minutes to calm down and I did not try to tell him again. I believe theses reactions spring from complete memories of the incident from my unconscious mind. It’s strange. I can describe what happened to me, to my peers, and to other abductees, without this reaction overcoming me.

Feb. 6, 2000: The clock phenomenon continues and I do not usually record these events anymore. Last night when I got into bed, I glanced at the clock and watched it change to 11:11. Later on I awoke at 2:22 and went back to sleep. Later, I awoke with a start to clicking sounds and tingling. I glanced at the clock and it read 3:33. I fell back to sleep and awoke to see the clock change to 4:44.

Feb. 11, 2000: A few hours after I got out of bed this morning I received a flashback to a realistic dream I had had. In the dream, I was in a small rectangular room lying on something. To my right was a rectangular window or transparent opening connected to a similar room. I sat up, glanced through the window, and was shocked to see a nude woman lying on a table set up parallel to the window or opening. The woman was being examined or being operated on by some humanoid figures
dressed in white smocks. I cannot remember their faces.

Feb. 23, 2000: About a week ago I had a realistic dream about going through two shiny metal doors that seemed to disappear or open so fast I could not see them just before entering them. I remembered a panel with spark-like numbers flashing on it. The strange thing is each of the several times I remembered this dream, and planned to enter it in the diary, I forgot it until finally I did today.

Ap. 15, 2000: Out of a dead sleep, I raised my head to glance at the clock and saw it read 3:33. Simultaneously, I felt the tingling encompass my body. I got up to use the bathroom as it subsided. Later I awoke at 4:44 with my knees up in bed. Strange, as I do not sleep in this position.

Rosemary: Your research led you to the “meta-phenomenon,” the interconnection of UFOs, abductions, near-death experiences, ghosts, extrasensory abilities and other phenomena. What new
ideas have you had about these interconnections of paranormal and other-dimensional realities?

Ray: Most of my speculative ideas about such interconnections are based on a “what if” premise regarding information culled from UFO and NDE reports. I ask myself, “What if such experiences correspond to reality and are accepted at face value?” If I do accept such, I arrive at the following:

1. UFOs and their entities have paraphysical abilities. They materialize into our reality as solid objects. But are able to dematerialize to another coexisting reality.

2. UFO entities are genetically related to humans and other earthly life forms. The Nordics look like human beings. The grays are human fetuses taken from human surrogate mothers and brought to maturity in artificial wombs. The reported reptilian and insect-like entities are related to earth’s reptiles and insects.

3. The entities reported by UFO and Near-Death Experiencers are the same beings witnessed under different circumstances. Both appear human. Both can appear as light bodies. Both use telepathy.

4. The OBE abduction experience benchmarks are identical to those reported in NDEs. Percipients report being abducted in an OBE state and telepathic interactions with Nordic-like entities and light beings. Some experience a theophany and are taken to a world of light called “home” where they sense an interconnectedness and oneness of all things. They return with a belief love is supreme, and a new appreciation for ecology. Aftermath effects include electrical sensitivity and psychic abilities.

Conversely, some NDEs are identical to OBE UFO abductions. Percipients experience many of the same benchmarks listed above. Pioneer NDE researcher, Dr. Kenneth Ring, has called these “mixed motif” reports. His psychological profiles demonstrate significant commonalities between UFO abductees and NDErs.

5. UFO and NDE reports reveal the entities are intimately aware of the human life experience. Percipients report the beings know their past and future, including when they will die. In fact, NDErs are told they are being sent back to this life because it is not time for them to die and/or they have not finished work they were sent to do. The entities are able to manipulate human awareness of linear time. Witnesses report experiencing time standing still, suspended animation, time effects upon clocks, and lengthy experiences in a short linear time span. Reports also indicate the entities are space travelers uninhibited by the laws of nature experienced in our reality. Their origin is the otherworldly dimension humans report during near death experiences and UFO abductions in an OBE state.

When the data above is taken at full face value, my grand conclusion is our reality or dimension, including human beings, is the property of an adjacent reality/civilization. Our plane of existence is analogous to their farm. We may be the larval form of the Nordic UFO/NDE entities being bred for a future life in the adjacent reality. Some humans are recycled back and forth between the realities until deemed ready for a life beyond this reality. NDEs themselves are the aborted near-maturation of our larval form which is not ready for new birth into the adjacent reality. UFO abductions are simply the other side of the coin to the near death experience. Abductions may be merely operations
preparing humans for the after life, analogous to humans raising and maintaining lower life forms such as cattle. Such include medical exams, health maintenance, breeding and monitoring dangers to earth’s ecology.

Of course, this is just one of many speculative theories concerning the origin of the UFO phenomenon. We may instead be dealing with a nuts and bolts inter-stellar alien technology so far in advance to us it appears paraphysical in nature. The resemblance to other types of paranormal phenomena may be coincidental. It also could be we are dealing with several different phenomena that have similar characteristics but have no connection with one another. In the end, all one can do is collect, study reports, and speculate.

Rosemary: It’s been several years since publication of UFO Testament (2002) and Synchrofile (2004), in which you talk about your personal experiences. What experiences—not necessarily abductions—have you had since that shed light on your own abduction history, and the speculated metaphenomenon mentioned above?

Ray: The clock phenomenon and synchronistic experiences continue, as do other paranormal phenomena such as apparent After-Death Communication (ADC) and time warp, i.e., visualizing the so-called past or future in the present. Here are examples from my diary.

Mar. 25, 2004: Clock Phenomenon. This can happen just before or after an unusual experience. I wake up, glance at the digital clock, and see identical numbers lined up. Sometimes I wake up for no apparent reason. Other times I am awakened by a bell, a buzz, a clicking sound, dogs barking, a thump against the house, a fire whistle blowing, etc. However, this time I was awakened by the alarm on my wrist watch. I woke up and glanced at a digital clock and then at my digital watch. They both read 1:11. I had not set the alarm on my watch.

Sept. 22, 2002: ADC. A strange dream? I woke in the early morning after a very realistic double dream. I was dreaming about being in my senior high class when suddenly I felt someone pulling my left arm. I awoke to see my mother’s face and part of her body glowing and hovering over the side of my bed saying, “Buster, you just stopped breathing!” I believe there was a brief conversation which I cannot remember. Then I suddenly found myself back in my first dream. I was in the classroom again and I walked up to my teacher, Mr. Nolan, and excitedly told him I had just talked to my mother who died some years ago. I felt elated. He did not seem impressed so I walked back to my desk. The dream continued for awhile and I woke up and used the bathroom wondering if I had really seen my mother or whether it was a dream. (I do have a mild problem with apnea and have stopped breathing in my sleep momentarily.)

Ap. 22, 2001: ADC. The past few days I was thinking about my father and strange experiences he had during his life. I wondered if he could contact me from where he was and I asked him mentally to show me a sign if he was all right. Then, something inexplicable happened this morning. Margaret turned up the thermostat and the furnace would not come on. Then she noticed the emergency shut off switch in the kitchen was off. Neither she nor I ever touch this switch except in an emergency or when a repair man needs it off. How did it get placed in the off position? Dad?

Feb. 15, 2003: ADC. Yesterday, I was thinking about my mother who woke me up and told me I had stopped breathing. I have also on occasion been awakened by her voice. I wondered if Dad was also watching over me. He experienced many OBEs and a variety of paranormal events in his life. I asked him mentally why he was not making himself known. The last time I did this, we found the furnace switch off. In any event, last night, when I opened my top bureau drawer, I saw nothing unusual. This morning I opened the same drawer and there was a photograph of my father staring me in the face. It was on top of everything else. I did not know this photo was in the drawer and had not seen it last night. It did not seem possible I could have missed it then.

Mar. 14, 2004: ADC. This week Margaret and I were awakened several nights by what sounded like her alarm clock going off. But when we checked her clock, it was set for 6:30 a.m. Last night, Margaret was awakened again by the clock and woke me to tell me about it. Concurrently, I heard the last notes of our doorbell sounding faintly from downstairs. It is operated by radio frequency and is sometimes triggered by the cell phone of a passing motorist. Again, it was exactly midnight. This time Margaret noticed the sound was coming from my study. I checked the clock in the study and found that alarm had been set for midnight. Neither Margaret nor I had set that clock. Again, something strange coincided with my thinking about contact with my Dad.

Feb. 6, 2007: Time Warp. I got up to use the bathroom around 4 and noticed Margaret was not in bed. Her blankets were pulled back as if she had gotten up to go to the bathroom. The bathroom is next to our bedroom. A night light illuminates the bathroom and our bedroom doorway. I thought she must be in the bathroom and waited for her to come out. She did not, so I peeked around the corner and was surprised she was not in the bathroom. When I turned to go into the bedroom, I was shocked to see her in bed with the blankets over her. I have had things like this happen once in a while where I see future or past things in the present. I asked if she had been up to use the bathroom. She said around 4 AM, but we did not pass each other, or hear each other do so. It would have been impossible to miss her.

May 16, 2007: Time warp. While driving home, I glanced at the house of a friend about 100 feet ahead. Someone was mowing the front lawn beside the road. I took my eyes off the person for a
split second and looked again. No one there but the lawn looked freshly mowed but not raked!

Ap. 22, 2004: Time Warp. While vacationing in Massachusetts, we took one of our favorite walks near Cherry Hill Park in Danvers. Where we parked was a white car and another car to the left of our car. Coming back and at about 50 feet from our car, I remarked the two cars were still parked beside our car. I could see them plainly. Margaret replied that the white car was gone. I glanced up and for a
moment, I could still see the white car before seeing an empty space where it had been. The third car was still there. This has happened to me with cars before. The difference this time was I could still see a car while Margaret said she could not see it. Again, am I hallucinating? or momentarily glimpsing the past? as I seem to have on previous occasions!

Feb. 20, 2004: Time Warp. Margaret and I took a walk on Blueberry Plain this afternoon. As we approached the tiny parking lot, I noticed a car was already parked there. I turned my eyes away for a moment and then looked again. There was no car there although I had seen it as plain as day a moment before. Margaret had not noticed the car and in fact insisted there could not have been one and I must have imagined it. I wonder if the car had been there sometime in the past and I momentarily glimpsed the past. Perhaps this happens more often than people think but they usually do not have a reference point to judge by.

Ap. 29, 2003: Time Warp. Another incident where I may have seen the past or future in the present. I arrived to go fishing at the Merriland River and found three cars parked at the River. I hoped whoever was fishing were not at some of my favorite places. I figured there were at least three fisherman, so I decided to count them as I made my way along the stream. I saw the first one and continued walking. I then came across number two standing in the water about 70 –100 feet from me. I stopped to watch him and counted two. I started to walk on, but glanced again to see what he was doing. No fisherman there! The area was wide open. There was nowhere he could have gone in several seconds. I looked up and down the river but there was no one there! These are a few samples of the strange things I experience in addition to the amazing synchronistic events in my life.

Rosemary: How are the characteristics of abductions changing? Increasingly, it appears humans are being prepared for something rather than just being examined. What are your views on this? What are the dominant messages abductees are being given now, and what is their significance?

Ray: I am no longer investigating abductions, so am not aware of how it may be changing. As mentioned, we may be being prepared and conditioned for life in their realm after we shed our dead bodies in this realm. One of the dominant messages given abductees regards ecology and the damage humans are causing the earth and its life forms. Interestingly, the same message is given to those who return from near-death experiences. Another interesting alien message was given to Betty Andreasson. She was told humans are more then flesh and blood and we are being prepared for a time when the Big Door will be opened. Abductee Herbert Schirmer was told by his captors that “one day you will see the universe as we have.”

Rosemary: To what degree do you think aliens have assimilated themselves into human society? Who are they, and what ends are they working toward?

Ray: I don’t know. All we can do is speculate. However, if you put a business suit on a Nordic and gave him a hair cut I doubt anyone would think he was an alien. A Nordic would blend quite well into our society. We seem to be made in the image of the Nordics. I believe aliens and humans are related. As the comic strip character Pogo once said, “We have met the aliens and they is us!”
Again, there is a parallel between humans breeding and maintaining lower life forms and the UFO abduction operations. Reports indicate they can control the human mind. This being the case, they can bring specific humans together for specific breeding, and genetic engineering. They mix, match and track families over generations (just as we do with lower life forms on earth) for purposes beyond our current understanding.

Rosemary: In the past you’ve been a fundamentalist Christian but have since expanded your theology, as a result of your research and own abductions. How would you describe your personal religious beliefs now?

Ray: I am no longer what one would call a fundamentalist Christian. I still attend church and take part in Bible Study, Nursing Home Programs, Choir and Soloist. I believe strongly in the moral teachings of the Judaic-Christian tradition but have problems with aspects of Christian theology. It is a difficult tightrope for me to walk within the Christian community. A number of Christians I meet have had UFO sightings, abductions and NDEs, but still feel strongly God wants them to remain in a loving church family that reaches out to help the needy.

Rosemary: One area JAR is asking experts to address is, how do abductees and their families cope? In your case, you have not had family support in the past. Please share with us how you and your family have continued to address this part of your life. How has it affected your relationships?

Ray: Since my last book on UFOs, my family has become less agitated about my interest in UFOs. They had reluctantly put up with my interest for many years but later became both alarmed and embarrassed when I went public with my own abduction experiences in my book The Watchers. My wife was so upset she went for pastoral counseling. My daughter urged my pastor to counsel me. My son suggested we pay for an evaluation by a psychiatrist. However, my pastor told both my wife and daughter I should continue to probe the UFO phenomenon. His wife had had a close encounter with a disk-shaped object that followed her car in broad daylight. When I told my son I had already taken and passed psychiatric testing, he backed off. My daughters who initially were frightened to have our grandchildren spend the night at our home now have allowed them to do so. They even said when their daughters are 18, they would not mind their reading my books.
Currently, things are much better as long as I don’t talk about the subject to them. Thankfully, on the other hand, it has not impacted our loving relationships and activities together. My wife even jokes about it sometimes. She does not mind my teaching classes on UFOs and the paranormal as long as she is not involved. She even serves as hostess to some of my meetings on these subjects. However, this could change if my abduction experiences were publicized in such a way that neighbors, friends and the local populace knew about them.

On May 19, 2007, I gave a public UFO lecture to the Association of Former Intelligence Officers (AFIO) at the local library. My wife did not object, but both of us hoped in the discussion period no one would ask me about my abduction experiences. Until this time I had turned down such public lecture requests, but felt obligated to do this one because I am friends with two former CIA officers in the group. [Note: No one asked about Ray’s own abduction experiences.]

Rosemary: What advice do you have for abductees whose families are skeptical or even antagonistic, and for family members having a hard time coping with an abductee?

Ray: My advice to abductees with family problems is they should keep their experiences to themselves at home, and with friends, unless asked about them. They should become acquainted with and find support from others who have had such experiences. The non-abductee family members should not be hostile to the abductee, but should realize the abduction phenomenon is only
one of many mysteries we learn to live with in our lifetime.

Rosemary: You’ve said in the past that you promised your family you would end your direct work in UFOs. Have you held to that? What have your alien contacts had to say about it?

Ray: I told my family UFO Testament would be my last book on UFOs and I would no longer conduct UFO investigations for MUFON. I have kept that promise, although UFOs were mentioned in connection with NDE and synchronistic experiences in my book Synchrofile. I have no idea what aliens had to say about this except that my synchronistic experiences seem to tell me what I am doing at the present time is what I am supposed to be doing.